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  • Experiencing Major Midi Sync Issues

    Since downloading the latest Num build, I cannot get it to sync with Logic any more. I'm running SE in stand alone mode, and syncing to Logic's clock via an IAC bus. When I start the clock in Logic, Num wildly fluctuates all over the place at random tempos. This set up was working fine up until I downloaded the latest build, the issue also occurs on my older projects. The only change to my system recently is that I installed the Soundflower app -- I wonder whether it's interfering with my IAC device somehow (it shouldn't be since it only deals with audio and not midi, but still).

    Any ideas?

  • #2
    Actually "fluctuates" would be an inaccurate description -- Numerology literally cycles through its entire tempo range, from 0 to maximum then back again ad infinitum.

    Also, it's taken to shutting down suddenly.

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    • #3
      BTW my system is a 2.2 GHz Intel Core Duo, 2GB ram, OS X 10.5.8. Running Logic 8.

      I've had a fair few problems with Numerology since buying a license in December -- not saving projects, not shutting down completely, timeline glitches -- so I'm wondering if it might not be my system that's the problem?

      Comment


      • #4
        Nothing that I can recall has changed in the sync sub-system -- mostly it is an algorithm built into OS X called Core Audio Clock. I ran a rough sync test with Logic over IAC and build 32 and didn't see anything obvious other than a very short tempo fluctuation when Logic's transport is looping.

        In general, I consider Logic to be a lousy sync source -- Logic does not timestamp MIDI clock events, which means that by the time Numerology gets them, they have a huge amount of jitter. CoreAudio Clock does a great job of syncing to them, but I find it non-optimal in general.

        Regardless, you shouldn't be seeing the behavior that you have. Email me (jim <at> five12 <dot> com) and I will get you a debug build so we can track it down.

        As for the other issues, they need to be addressed individually. The way to start is for you to email me any and all crash logs you have. They will be located in <your home dir>/Library/Logs/CrashReporter, or on 10.6.4 or later, <your home dir>/Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports.

        Thanks,
        Jim

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        • #5
          I am running also build 32.
          Syncing from Logic Pro 9.1.3 to Numerology through IAC bus.
          NO sync problem for me, besides the little glitch in tempo when Logic's playhead jumps when in cycle mode, as Jim mentioned also.


          Just for you 2 know !


          Best,

          Rob.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by vanhaze View Post
            I am running also build 32.
            Syncing from Logic Pro 9.1.3 to Numerology through IAC bus..
            Is there a benefit of syncing through the IAC bus, as opposed to syncing with ReWire?
            I tried to get my head around the IAC bus sync method, but it may as well have been written in Chinese so i just left it, and sync Numerology to Logic Pro 9 using ReWire.

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            • #7
              Thanks for the replies guys.

              I think it was something on my side -- I deleted the original IAC Device and created a new one, and it's back to normal now.

              As for Logic as a clock source, I agree it's pretty bad. I rather get the impression that Apple could care less about its customers who use midi extensively -- see their abandonment of SoundDiver for example. Let's hope if enough of us on these forums and elsewhere log complaints we might see some improvement in the future.

              Cheers for the great software btw Jim, Numerology has improved my entire work flow ten fold.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Logos Lover View Post
                Is there a benefit of syncing through the IAC bus, as opposed to syncing with ReWire?
                I tried to get my head around the IAC bus sync method, but it may as well have been written in Chinese so i just left it, and sync Numerology to Logic Pro 9 using ReWire.
                As of the current version (3.0.2), the advantages of running Numerology sync'd via MIDI instead of ReWired are:
                - More accurate note scheduling for transmitted MIDI.
                - Somewhat less latency when sending MIDI to other programs.
                - Slightly more convenient AU hosting, as the AU edit windows show up in Numerology instead of the host (as in ReWire mode).
                - Audio Input.

                The disadvantages are:
                - MIDI sync requires a bit more work to setup -- but is generally easy to maintain.
                - audio streaming to the host is a hassle.

                I plan to add the note scheduling and latency compensation features currently in the AU to the N3 ReWire for 3.1, so that will help resolve those issues. Support for Audio Input in ReWire mode is mostly an 'on-demand' issue : if users demand it, I can add it -- adjusting as necessary for demands for other features.

                With AU hosting support in the ReWire version, and with the soon-to-be-added improvements in MIDI transmission, I think it is an ideal integration option -- easy and effective sync, and the ability to run full projects with cross-stack routings and modulations. It is slightly less convenient than using a plugin -- as you have to manage separate projects, but I consider it to be a fair tradeoff.

                Cheers,
                Jim

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by sean View Post
                  Thanks for the replies guys.

                  I think it was something on my side -- I deleted the original IAC Device and created a new one, and it's back to normal now.

                  As for Logic as a clock source, I agree it's pretty bad. I rather get the impression that Apple could care less about its customers who use midi extensively -- see their abandonment of SoundDiver for example. Let's hope if enough of us on these forums and elsewhere log complaints we might see some improvement in the future.

                  Cheers for the great software btw Jim, Numerology has improved my entire work flow ten fold.
                  Interesting, thanks for the update, and glad to hear that you got the sync issue resolved. I still encourage you to contact me about any further issues -- I'm here to help!

                  Cheers,
                  Jim

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jim View Post
                    As of the current version (3.0.2), the advantages of running Numerology sync'd via MIDI instead of ReWired are:
                    - More accurate note scheduling for transmitted MIDI.
                    - Somewhat less latency when sending MIDI to other programs.
                    - Slightly more convenient AU hosting, as the AU edit windows show up in Numerology instead of the host (as in ReWire mode).
                    - Audio Input.

                    Cheers,
                    Jim
                    I think i'll have to have another go at syncing Numerology and Logic via the IAC method.
                    However I really found it confusing, so that's why i gave up on it.

                    Is this the correct video to set it up?
                    IAC

                    I only use hardware synths so i'm not sure what changes i'd need to make to the example shown in the video?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Logos Lover View Post
                      Is this the correct video to set it up?
                      IAC
                      Yes, that is a good reference...

                      Originally posted by Logos Lover View Post
                      I only use hardware synths so i'm not sure what changes i'd need to make to the example shown in the video?
                      You only need to pay attention to the IAC bus setup, the sync setup in Numerology, and the sync setup in Logic. You can skip anything involving MIDI channels, the Logic Environment, etc. Most of the beginning of the video is sync setup, with the Logic sync setup a bit before half-way through.

                      You might also want to check the Appendix in the manual. There is a "how-to" on syncing Numerology to Logic via MTC -- MIDI Clock is the same, just with a different sync-type setting, and you can ignore the SMPTE format settings.

                      Cheers,
                      Jim

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jim View Post
                        You only need to pay attention to the IAC bus setup, the sync setup in Numerology, and the sync setup in Logic. You can skip anything involving MIDI channels, the Logic Environment, etc. Most of the beginning of the video is sync setup, with the Logic sync setup a bit before half-way through.
                        Cheers,
                        Jim
                        So i've just set this up and it was pretty straight forward. I created an IAC Bus in the Audi midi set-up. Set Numerology's sync-in to midi-clock via the IAC bus, and in Logic I'm transmitting midi-clock via the IAC bus. Starting Logic, starts Numerology as it should, following tempo changes etc

                        Numerology is controlling a hardware synth, and in Logic i record this synth to an audio track. But there is latency off the grid averaging 240 samples/ 5 ms, (which i can see in Logic's sample editor)
                        So how tdo I compensate for this 240 samples / 5ms latency, to get recorded audio as bang on to the grid as possible?
                        Last edited by Logos Lover; 03-13-2011, 06:44 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Logos Lover View Post
                          Numerology is controlling a hardware synth, and in Logic i record this synth to an audio track. But there is latency off the grid averaging 240 samples/ 5 ms, (which i can see in Logic's sample editor)
                          So how tdo I compensate for this 240 samples / 5ms latency, to get recorded audio as bang on to the grid as possible?
                          The most accurate, foolproof method is to do it after the fact, by manually shifting the audio. Logic also has track-based latency controls, but I do not know them very well.

                          I am adding a "clock offset" feature to Numerology 3.1 (SE & Pro), it allows you to run a track ahead or behind a bit (just like the latency adjustment in the Numerology AU). The setting can be made in milliseconds or # of audio buffers. If you have N3 Pro, you can use the ClockOffset module, but you have to determine the amount of 'run ahead' in fractions of a beat.

                          Cheers,
                          Jim

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jim View Post
                            The most accurate, foolproof method is to do it after the fact, by manually shifting the audio. Logic also has track-based latency controls, but I do not know them very well.

                            I am adding a "clock offset" feature to Numerology 3.1 (SE & Pro), it allows you to run a track ahead or behind a bit (just like the latency adjustment in the Numerology AU). The setting can be made in milliseconds or # of audio buffers.
                            Cheers,
                            Jim
                            I like to run all my synths live, so the clock offset is something i'm really looking forward to with the 3.1 release.
                            BTW I could never get the AU to be accurate when controlling a hardware synth. Either too far ahead, so i'd adjust the "timing fine adjust", then it'd be too far behind the grid, adjust a little again, then back the other way. I spent ages trying to get it right, but never could. Sorry to say i just gave up on it altogether.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Logos Lover View Post
                              BTW I could never get the AU to be accurate when controlling a hardware synth.
                              Not for nothing but are you sure it's the AU timing that's at fault? I've found the AU to be incredibly accurate whereas most latency/jitter is introduced by USB midi interfaces. I've also discovered that the lowest buffer settings provide the most accurate MIDI handling. YMMV.

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