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Jitter problems with Vector in RC24 mode

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  • Jitter problems with Vector in RC24 mode

    ​My alternate thread title would've been "Delay, jitter and other fun stuff from the world of timing". So here is my Problem: I try to get a stable timing/clock connection between Ableton Live (on Windows 10), my eurorack modules and my outboard sequencers with an E-RM Multiclock.

    Ableton, Multiclock and my Elektron sequencers are already running smoothly together. During the last days I tried to integrate my eurorack modules in the best possible way. On the eurorack side, there are Pamela’s New Workout, Intellijel uMIDI and Vector (without Jack Expander) as potential clock receivers. Without the Jack Expander, Vector and Pam need start/stop commands and 24 PPQN tempo information via CV. Both devices have a different delay and for optimal timing they shouldn’t run together on the same channel of the Multiclock.

    I’ve chosen the following configuration:
    On Multiclock channel 1 (CV out) is Pam, on channel 2 is uMIDI, channels 3 and 4 are for my Elektrons. Vector is connected to Multiclock via uMIDI as an MIDI/CV Interface. In Multiclock, I configured two timing presets for uMIDI stand alone and for uMIDI as MIDI/CV converter for vector with the additional delay included.

    Here is a link to the Ableton project, if you are interested in the details:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j6T...ew?usp=sharing
    And here is a screenshot of my Ableton project:



    Orange is Pam, yellow is uMIDI (solo preset on Multiclock), green is Vector (free-running with its internal clock and synced to the second beat after the recording), blue is Vector connected to uMIDI (uMIDI Vector preset on Multiclock). My audio source is a high pitched oscillator and the 1/8 note trigger/gate outs are directly connected to a VCA.

    Below are screenshots of the first nine 1/8 beats. On the first beat, only the MIDI clock of uMIDI starts correctly. All other devices are a little behind the beat and that's totally fine.
    On the following 1/8 notes, Pam and uMIDI are always spot-on. But Vector differs from beat to beat and shows a notable amount of jitter. The recording of internally clocked Vector (green) is way better then the RC24 synced version (blue).

    The jitter is no show stopper, but it is absolutely audible. If panned hard left and right, it’s easy to detect a wobbly stereo image. As I wrote in the other post about CV tools, these timing issues won't stop me from making music.

    Still my questions are:
    Is there anything that can be done to reduce the jitter when Vector is synced via RC24?
    Just in case, would the Jack Expander bring an improvement over uMIDI?
    The second question is rather hypothetical because I don't need the Jack Expander for any other application, it's not cheap and uses 12 HP.​


    Thanks for your advice and cheers
    Thomas










  • #2
    Friendly Bump

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    • #3
      so i've been having similar overall issues with jitter from ableton and i got an Expert Sleepers USAMO to clock the Vector via MIDI (using the expander). while it is significantly better than the native MIDI from Ableton, i do still get a small amount of jitter on around 30% of the hits, ranging from 2-5ms. overall latency is much more manageable. i can't read the time scale on yours, but how many ms is it and how often does it occur?

      i'm not really using my vector for drums so i am pretty happy with this. while i generally prefer to clock with CV, the vector did not respond well to SW sync clock signals, needed a negative value for the run signal when low, and i couldn't get reset to work at all (either in RC24 or Cr1/4). CV Tools had similar issues.

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      • #4
        Heyhey,
        I didn't measure all clicks, but with an optical estimation there are 6 or 7 clicks that are more than 4 ms off the grid. 2.1.1. is my first downbeat and 2.3.1 is the worst with an offset of 7 ms. The other clicks have a variety between 0 ms and maybe 3 ms.

        Like you wrote, the overall latency is no problem if you have something like USAMO, Multiclock or ACME-4, but the jitter remains...

        Cheers
        Thomas

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        • #5
          SAME HERE , all good but vector is SO SO BAD WITH CLOCKING , really its completly unprofessional and horrible thing , please put ur things together james and fix these , is not ok to sell a product like these , sorry for the rant , but i save for months to get it , and is really then worst clocking sequencer i ever had in 9 years of modulars , and sadly the best one i use .

          what a disaster i guess ll give it back and ask for a refund while i can , these is not fine

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Willo View Post
            SAME HERE , all good but vector is SO SO BAD WITH CLOCKING , really its completly unprofessional and horrible thing , please put ur things together james and fix these , is not ok to sell a product like these , sorry for the rant , but i save for months to get it , and is really then worst clocking sequencer i ever had in 9 years of modulars , and sadly the best one i use .

            what a disaster i guess ll give it back and ask for a refund while i can , these is not fine
            Those are some pretty harsh accusations...
            IMHO the problem is no show-stopper, especially if you get rid of the constant delay, but I would welcome a fix.

            Cheers
            Thomas

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            • #7
              Kinda disconcerting to hear that Vector has the amount of jitter Invisiblewires and nrg242 are reporting. I too use sample-accurate MIDI clock (via USAMO) to prevent jitter and would not be pleased to have it reintroduced to my events. Following this thread

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              • #8
                For what it is worth, I am getting solid timing using Win10, Cubase, SW SYNC and my MOTU out to the Vector. I have to adjust clock down and also offset but once I get it right, it is tight.

                Also, I have owned quite a few eurorack sequencers and almost all have required that kind of adjustment and tuning.

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                • #9
                  Sadly we experience problems , with similar setup , i try what you sayd and is not looking solid , u record in a daw ? U have the expander though steve , that might be helping you , but im sure if u record in 24ppqn u have jitter u just not notice , im sure if u record it u ll also have these problems, also it feels u are affiliated to five12 somehow , so dont know

                  hope it get fix asap , gladly signal sounds accepted to extended my return period so i can give time to james to fix it , but steve these is not ok , i use several sequencer never had problem like these clocking from es-3 , clearly a vector problem , cause even clocking from pamela in 24ppqn mode is not reliable .

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                  • #10
                    Im crossing fingers we all can solve it , if it were only me i could understand but here we have more cases, either way i love it to death , so i really hope there will be a solution before i take it back

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                    • #11
                      Offset is not the problem, is easy to fix that with delay compensation , the problem is the erratic 1 to 6 ms jitter , that CANT BE OFFSET =[

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by steve.turner View Post
                        For what it is worth, I am getting solid timing using Win10, Cubase, SW SYNC and my MOTU out to the Vector. I have to adjust clock down and also offset but once I get it right, it is tight.

                        Also, I have owned quite a few eurorack sequencers and almost all have required that kind of adjustment and tuning.
                        Hi Steve,
                        for precise synchronization between your DAW and external hardware you probably can't avoid sync via audio (SW, Multiclock, Innerclock...). But jitter cannot be eliminated this way.

                        However, I've got the impression that timing "precision" is perceived very differently. Musical context and personal perception certainly play a big role. The very same timing behavior can be sufficient for ambient drones but not suitable for glichty IDM. And some people may not even notice the differences discussed here. That was the reason why I made my Ableton Project available.

                        I'd be happy if the timing behavior of Vector could be improved and I'd be even happier if I could help/support the process to maintain this goal.

                        Cheers
                        Thomas

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Invisiblewires View Post

                          Hi Steve,
                          for precise synchronization between your DAW and external hardware you probably can't avoid sync via audio (SW, Multiclock, Innerclock...). But jitter cannot be eliminated this way.

                          However, I've got the impression that timing "precision" is perceived very differently. Musical context and personal perception certainly play a big role. The very same timing behavior can be sufficient for ambient drones but not suitable for glichty IDM. And some people may not even notice the differences discussed here. That was the reason why I made my Ableton Project available.

                          I'd be happy if the timing behavior of Vector could be improved and I'd be even happier if I could help/support the process to maintain this goal.

                          Cheers
                          Thomas


                          EXACTLY , ask steve several times a recording of a simple drum in 1/16 cause im pretty sure he is not realizing he have jitter but he denied and ignore me , maybe he is style of music is less important solid timing , for me is very important !! , but i feel people think we are insane when there is a solid problem going on with vector.
                          So now i l lask u publically steve can u please make a recording for us? of a simple drum in 1/16 using vector in 24ppqn mode with no expander? thx a lot=) dont wanna be annoyng but u have solid timing would like to see it

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                          • #14
                            Hi Willo,
                            please don't get me wrong, I'm not here to offend you, but I'm sure, you know the proverb "It's not what you say, but how you say it."...

                            Cheers
                            Thomas

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                            • #15
                              Steve is a really helpful guy, but you are just coming across as really demanding.
                              I know Jim has reached out to you, so the best thing would be to work with him to resolve your issues.

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