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  • #16
    Hi Willo,
    This is certainly not a problem that only occurs with your device. The connection between Ableton and Vector via USB-MIDI (via MIDI in general) is very susceptible to (constant) delay and jitter (variable delay).
    This is not a problem of Vector or Ableton or any other DAW, but is due to the implementation of MIDI in the operating system. I can only talk about Windows here, but I have heard about similar problems with MacOS. MIDI is given low priority within processor cycles.

    There are a few general tips that reduce the problem, but those do not eliminate it:
    https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/ar...dows-for-Audio
    https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree

    Audio processes have a much higher priority compared to MIDI processes. Some solutions take advantage of this fact to get a stable clock from the DAW.
    They use a plug-in inside the DAW and an audio output to send start/stop/reset commands and tempo to external hardware. This hardware then generates MIDI Clock, DIN Sync or Gate/x PPQN signals. Expert Sleepers USAMO, E-RM Multiclock (which I use), SND ACME-4 and Innerclock work on this principle. The systems differ in functionality, price and availability, but the basic approach is comparable.

    Last night I tried to investigate the problem in more detail and created a corresponding Ableton project and some screenshots. I will post these in a separate post today after work. If you are interested, I can also send you the Ableton project itself.

    A little warning and a reminder to myself: You shouldn't let these timing problems stop you from making music. Yesterday I really had to make this clear to myself again.


    Cheers
    Thomas

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    • #17
      Originally posted by steve.turner View Post

      When I run SW SYNC by Expert Sleepers I run 2 separate instances of it. One to PAMS and one to my VECTOR and that means I can fine tune the settings of SW SYNC for each target device. I get solid timing that way. Something to consider.
      Hi Steve,
      thanks for your replay, I don't have SilentWay and I'm not sure about the compatibility of my interface, but I found a similar solution: I use two channels of Multiclock. Channel 1 (Run/24 PPQN) is for Pam, channel 2 (MIDI) is for uMIDI that runs Vector. I configured two separate timing presets in Multiclock for uMIDI on its own and for the combination of uMIDI and Vector.

      Cheers
      Thomas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Invisiblewires View Post
        Hi Willo,
        This is certainly not a problem that only occurs with your device. The connection between Ableton and Vector via USB-MIDI (via MIDI in general) is very susceptible to (constant) delay and jitter (variable delay).
        This is not a problem of Vector or Ableton or any other DAW, but is due to the implementation of MIDI in the operating system. I can only talk about Windows here, but I have heard about similar problems with MacOS. MIDI is given low priority within processor cycles.

        There are a few general tips that reduce the problem, but those do not eliminate it:
        https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/ar...dows-for-Audio
        https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree

        Audio processes have a much higher priority compared to MIDI processes. Some solutions take advantage of this fact to get a stable clock from the DAW.
        They use a plug-in inside the DAW and an audio output to send start/stop/reset commands and tempo to external hardware. This hardware then generates MIDI Clock, DIN Sync or Gate/x PPQN signals. Expert Sleepers USAMO, E-RM Multiclock (which I use), SND ACME-4 and Innerclock work on this principle. The systems differ in functionality, price and availability, but the basic approach is comparable.

        Last night I tried to investigate the problem in more detail and created a corresponding Ableton project and some screenshots. I will post these in a separate post today after work. If you are interested, I can also send you the Ableton project itself.

        A little warning and a reminder to myself: You shouldn't let these timing problems stop you from making music. Yesterday I really had to make this clear to myself again.


        Cheers
        Thomas
        WOW MAN ur epic !! that would be nice if u can send so i can see . Thanks a lot yes i know about the bad usb stories that why i was looking foward clock it with audio . I think ll need to end up getting a multiclock eventually when i can spare some cash.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Willo View Post

          WOW MAN ur epic !! that would be nice if u can send so i can see . Thanks a lot yes i know about the bad usb stories that why i was looking foward clock it with audio . I think ll need to end up getting a multiclock eventually when i can spare some cash.
          Hey Willo,
          the Multiclock isn't a shiny, sexy new toy, but it get's the job done and gives peace of mind...

          I just opened a separat post with the Ableton project and screenshots:
          https://forum.five12.net/forum/euror...r-in-rc24-mode


          Cheers
          Thomas

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by steve.turner View Post
            Hey that’s a possible plan. To be clear my expert sleepers solution is the silent ways vst using audio outs from my MOTU. So no hardware between. And it’s flawless with both vectors. I hope you get your situation sorted either way.
            Hey Steve, any chance you can share your SW Sync and accompanying Vector Settings (24ppqn? Cr1? 1/16 division?) . i find that the vector clock responds via SW Sync, but is unstable with bpm fluctuations (this is via an ES-3 so essentially nothing in between). however, the Vector won't start its sequence unless the Run voltage is negative when low. and i've found no way to Reset via the jack either.

            messing around with 1st delay start didn't seem to improve anything. and adding an offset accounts for latency but not the jitter.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by nrg242 View Post

              Hey Steve, any chance you can share your SW Sync and accompanying Vector Settings (24ppqn? Cr1? 1/16 division?) . i find that the vector clock responds via SW Sync, but is unstable with bpm fluctuations (this is via an ES-3 so essentially nothing in between). however, the Vector won't start its sequence unless the Run voltage is negative when low. and i've found no way to Reset via the jack either.

              messing around with 1st delay start didn't seem to improve anything. and adding an offset accounts for latency but not the jitter.
              Sure thing!

              Vector is RC24 and everything works.

              You might need to tweak settings based on your setup etc.

              Attached.
              Attached Files

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              • #22
                thanks steve! gonna try this out today. on mine, vector won't run unless i drop that run voltage below 0. i wonder if dropping clock low below zero will help the fluctuations. i do have a sneaking suspicion that a firmware upgrade borked the clocking for me as i feel like these issues have worsened since i bought the unit. gonna go experiment with FW rollback and the above.

                quick question about that offset. does the vector still start as soon as you hit play or does it take a measure to get going? my experience with offset is that usually the first beat will still be off or it will wait a whole measure to send the clock at the offset timing.

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                • #23
                  Ok, i think that Clock Low setting did the trick to prevent the bpm fluctuations. as for using an offset, it then waits a full bar to send clock to the vector which would mean i would have to start sequences a measure before i would want to start recording or synced play. and at least it now also resets appropriately.

                  unfortunately there is still an amount of jitter involved, again 2-7ms which was similar to what i was getting using the USAMO. this is all on v 1.9.32 (and similar to 1.9.24 yesterday).

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nrg242 View Post
                    Ok, i think that Clock Low setting did the trick to prevent the bpm fluctuations. as for using an offset, it then waits a full bar to send clock to the vector which would mean i would have to start sequences a measure before i would want to start recording or synced play. and at least it now also resets appropriately.

                    unfortunately there is still an amount of jitter involved, again 2-7ms which was similar to what i was getting using the USAMO. this is all on v 1.9.32 (and similar to 1.9.24 yesterday).
                    Hi NRG242 - sorry, i do not know your name. Are you on FB? If you are feel free to say hi.

                    Regarding your settings, yes CLOCK LOW makes an impact definitely. I have played with settings from minus .36 through to minus 1.0 and seen improvements.

                    Regarding OFFSET I find a positive value works but also interacts with CLOCK LOW so play with that.

                    Steve.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Also all users should be trying firmware 1.9.36 which can be found here.

                      This firmware includes RC24 sync improvements and I have seen very good performance using SWSYNC and Pams New Workout.

                      Other users have also seen strong improvements regarding jitter, so definitely give it a try.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hello everyone,

                        FYI I use the Vector as my master clock for Max, Ableton Live, IJ Steppy and Pam's NW...
                        I set the out clock at 16, this is needed as the Steppy does not support 24ppq.

                        The Run signal will not work with CV Tools as it sends a +ve pulse to start and a -ve pulse when the sequencer is stopped. The CV Tools has a toggle mode but this only works on a +ve pulse. If you like to code in Max and gen you can copy and modify the gen 'trig_detect' patch by inverting the logical >0 and <0 checks. (Create a 2nd trig_detect_inv patch and work that into the CV Tools device).

                        Also note that the CV Tools tempo sync does beat detection and sets the Live Tempo as the detection changes. So the clocks are never in perfect sync they are sync'd up at intervals.

                        I'd recommend a patch that use the 'Reset' pulse to sync the devices all together. On my rack I have a mult dedicated to the clock and run signals. I use a separate mult cable for patches that need the reset.

                        The other issue that comes up again and again is the steepness of a pulse. I have a problem on a few devices that don't like the pulses as the rising edge is too slow. (I had this problem with my Arturia Minibrute 2S and Arturia said the issue was caused by a Low Pass filter in the circuit). I did see the issue on one of the gates of the Vector expander with one of my Doepfer ADSRs. I switched the gate to one on the sequencer and the problem didn't happen on that port. I've learnt to live with it.

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                        • #27
                          I use bitwig but generally this might be helpful to anyone in any daw. For some reason both Bitwig and Ableton, the two eurorack daws, dont send sustained run gates for clocking. Which is really weird to me considering I have never seen a sequencer that doesnt Run with a high cv signal.

                          Anyways, put this audio file of a high CV gate in a sampler instrument. Rout the channel out to the eurorack or kill the channel volume and send it out with a Hardware FX routing. This has the extra benefit of easier latency compensation because you can set the input to an instrument when vector is in record mode and the latency ping will give you a proper compensation number.

                          And of course, have a sampler play that file looping will give you a high gate that starts when you press play and pauses when you pause. Just need to have a track long midi note and note chase on.

                          http://https://drive.google.com/file...ew?usp=sharing <- dont play that through your speakers unless you want a reason to buy new speakers.

                          And a point about midi... midi sync for me generally works 1000% better if you use a Hardware Instrument plugin and set the vector as the instrument even though theres no midi notes. and have the plugin send the midi clock. I think maybe DAWs send their preferences midi clock without all the latency compensation or something. But those type of plugins are treated just like the rest and for me the always line up really well.

                          This also has the same benefit of one button latency compensation. have vector set with record to an instrument, ping the button, and youre compensated after a push or two.
                          Last edited by ryan_pwm; 08-16-2021, 04:24 AM.

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